#10: AI, Digitalisation and Inclusion

Ian Bowie
Hello and welcome to AI unfiltered with me Ian Bowie and our resident expert, Michael Stormbom. Where we’re talking about everything to do with AI in our modern digital society and what the future holds for all of us.

I don’t think actually you can live very easily these days without a proper smartphone.

Michael Stormbom
No, I mean, it’s a term, digital exclusion, when you, if you’re not using this or you don’t have the competence to use and and I like you, you’re literally excluded.

Ian Bowie
Yes, actually.

Michael Stormbom
From large areas of society. So I think I think there are two angles to that. I mean, one is can we use digital stuff to make things more inclusive. And I would argue that to some extent, we can, for example, from a mobility perspective, for example, and for for people living remotely, that you can have access to services. Yeah. So that’s one but then other one is, the other one is that people having the – this is the exclusion part – of people having the necessary competencies and the bandwidth to actually use the thing.

Ian Bowie
I don’t think it’s necessarily just the competencies, but I think it’s also just access to the technology itself. There’s a lot of people out there who possibly even already have the skills, they might have learned them in school, they might have learned them in university.

I mean, for example, right, a very good example. I’m going to start a master’s degree this autumn. And there’s a couple of skills that I really, really want to improve. And one is photography, and the other one is filmmaking. And what the what the university told me was that they have got all the latest and all the greatest equipment there. And it will be accessible to me as a student, along with tutors who can train me in how to use all of this stuff. Well, of course, you know, the one thing that became clear to me is, there’ll be equipment in there which is worth 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of pounds, which, at the moment, I certainly wouldn’t have access to because I couldn’t afford it. But I do have access to that higher level education. So that I think gives me an advantage and there’s a lot of people out there they don’t have access to the education. And they certainly haven’t got the financial wherewithal to buy the equipment that they would like to have. But they probably have the acumen and the intellectual capital to be able to use it all and probably use it very, very well. And so I think a large part of inclusion is actually making the technology accessible to people who don’t necessarily have the financial means to buy it for themselves.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, and I mean one example of that, not to go into 3D printing, I think we can set it for a future episode as such. It’s an interesting topic. Yeah, but I mean, the libraries I think here in Turku and of course in Helsinki, the Oodi library, they have 3D printers there. Yeah, so you wouldn’t need you don’t need to go and buy a 3D printer for yourself.

Ian Bowie
No, you go to the library.

Michael Stormbom
You go there. You put in your USB stick and print what you want.

Ian Bowie
Again, again, you know, we’re talking about a rich Western developed country that has excellent public services like the library system.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, but I think that’s part of inclusion.

Ian Bowie
I agree completely. But again, we’re talking about inclusion in the country where you already have a lot of advantaged people. But then what about if we even stay – let’s stay in Europe. Would those libraries also be offering 3D printing services to the public?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, I think that’s a good point. And well, I don’t know but yeah, but then on the other side, of course, a good point that we are very privileged here in here in Finland. No argument there, but…

Ian Bowie
I actually don’t even think that public libraries in the United Kingdom are offering 3D printing services. I’m sure they’re not. I don’t see why. You can’t enhance the public services that are offered. I mean, you know, libraries started out by simply lending books, and they’ve moved into music and videos and all sorts of things. I see no reason why they can’t evolve to include a range of other services as well.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, no, indeed. I mean, I think there’s a lot to be said for the for library services here in Finland. Definitely. I think it’s a it’s a great, great asset.

Ian Bowie
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think the library services in Finland are absolutely fabulous.

Michael Stormbom
And having this sort of like a common, like, spaces for creativity. I think that’s…

Ian Bowie
Yeah, well, I mean, if I think about the library here in Turku, where we are, they’ve got meeting rooms, you can hold small conferences, all kinds of things. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think about the library in the small town where my mum lives in England. They lend books I think that’s about it. Oh right, it’s a small rural town in the north of England, but you know, it’s chalk and cheese. There’s a massive difference in Turku Public Library here in Finland, and a small rural library, even in you know, the northwest of the UK.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. So I think the conclusion is that everyone should move to Finland, because… no, but…

Ian Bowie
Well, yeah, I mean, but but I think I think the conclusion is that there are massive differences. In accessibility, or the possibility to access the these kinds of technologies, even within Europe, let alone the rest of the world.

Michael Stormbom
And I mean, even within Finland, if we went to do accessibility point a bit. So AI might decrease the need for mobility, by which I mean if you can access your services through your computer or device, so you don’t need to physically…

Ian Bowie
So you actually don’t need to go somewhere. Yeah, like the bank, for example. Now, they’re very happy about that, aren’t they? They don’t want to see us anyway.

Michael Stormbom
No, indeed. But I mean, there’s a so I mean, there’s two angles, not only one is the accessibility angle that if you have some some form of mobility impairments…

Ian Bowie
true. Mind you having said that, I actually see that also, as a bonus, not having to waste my time going to these places. You know, I actually don’t really mind the fact that banking has gone online, for example, because I used to hate having to go to the bank and wait for God knows how long.

Michael Stormbom
no indeed I mean it takes I mean, you’re wasting your workday and…

Ian Bowie
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it’s a big time saver. Oh, yes. Absolutely. But you see that again, the problem is that when you are talking about physical mobility or lack of it, then the people that also that suffer from a lack of physical mobility are often also economically disadvantaged as well. I have a mobility problem which means that you probably have fewer possibilities for access to employment, which means therefore, you’re possibly more reliant on social services and benefits, which means that basically, you are in the lower segment of society. In terms of income.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, and you might not be able to afford right the equipment you would need to…

Ian Bowie
Yeah, that that is a interesting question. Because mobile phones are getting more and more powerful. The processors I mean, the processing power is phenomenal these days. If you get the especially the high end phones, but if you have got, let’s say speech to text app on your phone, so that’s using AI, do they actually need that kind of does that kind of AI program require a huge amount of processing power from your device?

Michael Stormbom
Well, there’s two approaches to that. One is that the actual speech to text actually runs in the cloud. So then you don’t really need to the processing power, but of course in situations where there might not be internet and so forth, which of course can can happen then there’s a lower quality that isn’t quite as accurate, locally on the phone.

Ian Bowie
And then if we go back to you know, the idea was using AI in education and thenpersonalized learning programs, for example, for children. Would these kids then need access to digital devices that have large processing capacities?

Michael Stormbom
I think that’s an interesting question that also I think came to the forefront during the corona pandemic and that you need, and those forced remote learning that you you need to be at home and you need to have a computer that can run teams or whatever, so it’s not. So you need to have a certain amount of processing power at your disposal which you don’t necessarily have so, I do think that’s a very…

Ian Bowie
I mean, I actually think there’s a very, very strong case for making access to digital hardware, a right for citizens, and that the government should be prepared to I don’t know, handout, maybe a basic laptop or some kind of tablet computer to everybody over the age of 18.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, I mean, I agree because I mean, I mean, it’s to me, it’s very much the government who is also pushing this digitalization of society. So.

Ian Bowie
I mean, I remember meeting about two years ago, a lady on the bus, I don’t take the bus very often, but this particular day, I was on the bus and got talking to this lady. And she was telling me what why she’d actually gone into town and the reason that she got into town and she’d gone to the bank to pay her bills, and I said, Well, can’t you do that online? And she said, Well, I can’t afford an internet connection, and I certainly can’t afford a computer.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, yeah. So and it is all the while the government and pushing for everything to be digitized.

Ian Bowie
Yes. But if you’re going to do that, you have to recognize that there are people within your society who do not have the means to go digital themselves and you have to do something about that to help them.

Michael Stormbom
Absolutely, absolutely.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. But I don’t think they are. That’s the problem.

Michael Stormbom
No, indeed. I think they’re just focusing on the let’s just digitize everything and that will magically…. I mean, we saw that also in there when in these discussions relating to the we had this election just here in Finland, in these healthcare regions that we now have here in Finland, so there was a lot of talk about how well, digitization will just sort of save our next when it comes to healthcare. Yeah, it just was not going to happen, certainly not by by itself and by just digitizing and hoping for the best. No.

Ian Bowie
No. But then I think also sitting here in Finland, we get a little bit carried away with this idea of digitalization, you know, everything’s about digitalization, but I think if you travel to France to Germany, to the UK, I think there is probably a little bit less emphasis on digitalization. I mean, banks for example, I mean, you know, my mum, it’s not a very big town where she lives, but there is still a local bank. And alright, yes, they’ve cut the number of opening hours, but you can still go there without an appointment and meet a human being and discuss your bank account or other financial needs that you might have. So it hasn’t quite all gone online in the UK.

Michael Stormbom
And also, I mean, for example, in Germany in the run up to the previous, the most recent election, I mean, last year, the very topic of digitalization, was one of their campaign issues there because Germany is definitely farther behind them than Finland.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I was talking to somebody actually, who is actually half German, and they were saying that, you know, Germans still like cash and they still trust cash, and German businesses, small shops and restaurants and places like that. Still appreciate cash. Actually, they’d rather be paid in cash than with a plastic card.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, I actually remember it was I went to Munich some some years back and in the taxi, so you couldn’t pay with a card at all, you have to pay with cash. Whereas in Sweden, for example, there, they predicted some years back that Sweden would be entirely cashless within within a decade. Yeah. And I can definitely believe that, I was in… It came as a surprise to me when I was in… I don’t remember what city was in Sweden, but anyway, I was gonna, well went to a cafe and bought a cup of coffee and for some reason, my card didn’t work. So I was like, Well, can I pay in cash and no, you could not. Card only. So that was a surprise to me as well, that.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, I mean, my barber here in Turku he’s cashless. Yeah. Doesn’t have the facilities to take cash at all. He said when he says okay, so it’s fine. If you if you must pay in cash. You have to have the exact amount because they have no change or anything like that. Yeah. And I know the buses now, I think you have to either pay with your card, or have the app or something. Something like that. Yeah. But you can’t you can’t pay with cash on a bus anymore. And you see, again, if we go back to the idea of inclusivity.

What about people who, you know, perhaps don’t have a debit card? I know it sounds like, who hasn’t got a debit card visa? But there are people, I’m sure there are, that do not have any cards. I mean, you see these old people they still go to the bank to withdraw their pension in cash. Yeah, yes. I’m sure they don’t have debit cards. So what happens when they want to get on the bus.

Michael Stormbom
They don’t I guess.

Ian Bowie
No. Start walking with your rollator.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. With your mobility impairment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, but I mean, I think that’s definitely very, very…

Ian Bowie
I mean, there are there are still whole segments of society, who are not included in this digitalization project.

Michael Stormbom
No, no, indeed. And it’s definitely not just about age, or sort of like s generational shift. I mean, there’s people of all ages who are being excluded.

Ian Bowie
Yes. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, socioeconomic is one, educational level, you know, do you actually have the intelligence to be able to use these things? The interest even, I mean, I know people who are very intelligent and they just have zero interest in technology and they don’t want to know. Yeah, yeah. But you still you can’t exclude them from society.

Michael Stormbom
But that seems to be the road that we’re going down.

Ian Bowie
The road we are going down. That’s right. Yeah, absolutely. I just watched this documentary on Netflix the other day called the Social Dilemma. And, again, there you are, you see that? There were people who have been in the past responsible for actually developing these social media platforms. And then within that documentary that they had a little kind of fictional skit going as well, about this family, dysfunctional family. And the fact that if you do not have a social media presence, you basically do not have a social life at all. You are completely excluded. So stuff the COVID vaccine and being excluded because you haven’t been vaccinated. Yeah, I was gonna say you, your mobile phone is more important.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. And it already has a 5G chip. We already have a 5G chip why are you worrying about second one.

There’s also a number of these accessibility things that one can do with AI. So I mean, think for example, speech recognition, and using using speech commands, for example. So we were talking about mobility impairments, so using using speech to to control things.

Ian Bowie
Well, I actually do. We got a smart TV recently. And I’ve discovered that it actually has a built in microphone. So if you go to, for example, Netflix. Not Netflix, sorry, YouTube, and you want to find something. You’ve got the choice of slowly typing it in on the keyboard that they provide, or you just talk to the microphone. And the microphone is incredibly accurate. I mean, I’m loving it because it’s saving me a load of time.

Michael Stormbom
Indeed, but I will… yes, I mean, it’s not just about convenience, because it’s also for people who might not have the possibility to type in the first place.

Ian Bowie
Well, that is also true, but no, I appreciate, I think, I mentioned it in another podcast about my uncle, and he actually uses Alexa to set up smarthomes for disabled people. And he’s retired. I mean, this is just a sort of a charitable thing that he does. But you know, it can do anything I mean, open your curtains, close your curtains, turn your TV on, turn it off, turns on the taps, turn on the shower if you ask it to adjust the heating, I think that’s quite a big thing. So if you start feeling too warm or too cold, you can just say, you know, turn up the heating to 22 degrees or whatever.

Michael Stormbom
No, no, absolutely. So I mean, that’s definitely one thing where I would argue that AI can be of great benefit from an accessibility perspective, and there’s also happened quite a lot there in those in these last few years. When I started my, my professional career some well it’s starting to be the early 2000s. So my very first real job, like out of university was we were doing this sort of like, accessibility programs. That was so long ago that they were not yet called apps. They were just, you know, mobile software. So it was very well one of these Nokia it wasn’t smartphones yet either. It was one of these early communicators 7710 or something. But.. Well, anyway, that company went bust about six months after I joined the company. Bbecause these devices don’t renew. They’re incredibly expensive right at the time.

Ian Bowie
So it wasn’t your salary then

Michael Stormbom
No, my salary contributed. My paultry salary right out of university. No, but no devices extremely expensive, really small user base there was only very, so it was a sort of like an application for people with particular forms of communicative difficulties. So the app helped to communicate through symbols actually. So a symbol corresponded to a particular word or a particular meaning kind of thing. And then there was also speech synthesis, so it could say out loud.

Ian Bowie
Okay, so there’s like a semiotic principle behind it. Or something.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed. And yeah, a very small user base and extremely expensive devices. So the company, as well meaning, and idealistic as the idea behind was, I mean, the market circumstances we’re not we’re not as forgiving.

Ian Bowie
But they probably won’t be today.

Michael Stormbom
That is my point exactly. Yeah. So today it’s, and that was another thing, it was quite difficult to program these devices right now. Nowadays, it’s, I could probably knock out the same application in an evening almost.

Ian Bowie
So these guys were basically just ahead of their time.

Michael Stormbom
So I mean, definitely in the last 15, 10, 20 years, there has been great strides in technology and I think that has been of tremendous benefit benefit from an accessibility perspective, absolutely.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai