#14: AI and Work

Ian Bowie
Hello and welcome to AI unfiltered with me Ian Bowie and our resident expert, Michael Stormbom. Where we will be talking about everything to do with AI in our modern digital society and what the future holds for all of us.

You know, will you find yourself in the future working with an algorithm?

Michael Stormbom
I think most of us are working with algorithms even without knowing it. In all actuality.

Ian Bowie
Everytime you touch a computer, do something.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, but yeah, if you want to hone in on on that particular virtual coworker topic, so not just, it’s not just that some algorithm does something but also that it has its are like our persona because that was one thing. I read an article about this company who does exactly that. So it’s not just about automating, but the thing that this algorithm does or program does it also has this like a persona like it has a name and a face and you can interact with witnesses like really like a virtual coworker taking it to the next level. I thought it was quite interesting.

Ian Bowie
So you could actually could you have a holographic coworker?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I think it’s on the stage where it’s on everyone’s role on the screen. But of course when there’s a holographic technology that certainly you could have a..

Ian Bowie
Then it goes to an even higher level. So what was the exact case study with this virtual coworker then, what was what was the actual virtual coworker doing?

Michael Stormbom
A lot of these were like rote tasks, like data entry and even project coordination to some extent and all of these things that are ripe for automation, it just has a nice sort of persona attached to it.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. But you know, it’s quite interesting because a lot of people out there who, I don’t know if they’re in some kind of process of self denial, but there are an awful lot of people out there who still don’t believe that this is coming, that this technology is actually coming to get them. I was reading, it was the corporate magazine for this one particular company, and in the magazine, there was an article about how they intend to fully automate their whole purchasing and project management process. And I discussed this with people. Oh, no, no, no, it’s not possible. No. They couldn’t do that. Because there’s this and then we have this and then sometimes this happens, and no, no, no, no, it’s not possible. So I get the feeling that people are in still a sort of process of fear and denial, that this technology is actually almost that good that we’re not many years away from them taking their job

Michael Stormbom
But yeah no, a lot of those tasks are many in the United States, for example, the the law profession. So all these junior lawyers, they’ve been doing a lot of useful like data analysis and data entry. Well, it’s mostly automated now. So that…

Ian Bowie
So there’s, there’s this legal process that they go through called discovery, and they use junior lawyers for that. Yeah. And now they’re saying well, of course, that can easily be automated.

Michael Stormbom
To a very large degree. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Ian Bowie
But the thing is, you see, if you talk to people who are actually doing these jobs right now, they won’t accept it. At least the people that I’ve been talking to. This is the future. No, no, no, no, no, no, it can’t be done. You know, but they’re doing it now. But people don’t want to accept it. Of course, it’s their job. You see, it’s their livelihood.

Michael Stormbom
No one wants to be turned obsolete.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, I mean, of course, it’s human nature, with certain kinds of humans nature. To sort of basically bury their head in the sand like an ostrich and pretend it’s not there. But the fact is, that in a way, surely people should be understanding and open to this technology and that would then empower them to prepare for the day. That job, your current job has been automated, but they’ve educated themselves to do something else.

Michael Stormbom
I mean, lifelong learning. That’s gonna that’s what they say is the…

Ian Bowie
Well, I think Lifelong Learning personally is a bit of a catchphrase, I don’t know…

Michael Stormbom
what I mean, the only… Well, to use another catch phrase. The only constant is change. Right?

Ian Bowie
Well, that but that is true, it’s a cliche, but it’s true. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. So I mean, even just looking at your my sector, the IT sector, if you look at how the competence requirements have changed over the past five years, or the past 10 years or the past 20 years. Yeah, I mean, it’s certainly a very radical change. I mean, I think the only, the real skill that you need to have as a programmer is the ability to learn new things, I would say, more so than any other any particular programming language because they will all go they will all go old and you need to learn new stuff. So I think that’s…

Ian Bowie
Yeah, well, I mean, some years ago, I actually had a student who lost his job, simply because they said, Well, your skills are outdated. And you don’t have anything to offer us at the moment. And that was it. Thank you and goodbye. Now, he was quite lucky because I think two or three months later, he found a company that was still working with the software technology that he knew. And they were desperately trying to find somebody who had that kind of old fashioned little bit outdated knowledge. So he got another job. But the fact is, he lost his job. Because that particular software by the company he was then working for was deemed to be out of date.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, I think that illustrates quite well exactly that, that you pretty much have to be prepared to learn new things fairly constantly.

Ian Bowie
That begs the question, who was more at fault? I mean, should should the company not also have some kind of obligation to the employees to ensure..

Michael Stormbom
Yes I mean, definitely.

Ian Bowie
So you knew what was coming, what question?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I think it’s definitely sort of like the employers’ really obligation obligation to keep its workforce up to date. Yes. And I think I’m just… not to go into the topic of IT too much. But I mean, here in Finland, we have actually a pretty big lack of competent IT people so there’s a quite a bit of a competition over those few programmers that we have here. Right? Well, I’m exaggerating a little bit but, but I mean, I think it also becomes this, like an employee benefit as well that you have this ability to or the possibility to learn new things.

Ian Bowie
I mean, that’s something which has always interested me about Finland actually is you know, we think about computer programming particularly. You can do that from anywhere in the world. But still, Finnish companies insist on mining, the same old mine, which is basically Finland. Finnish companies don’t seem to be very good at looking beyond the borders of Finland,

Michael Stormbom
that and I also they put too much emphasis on the skills you have today, in a way. So I mean, I’m coming back to that, I think a key skill in IT or – well, in any profession really – is the ability to learn new things. So rather than focusing too much on whether that person knows these particular programming language for that particular technology, let’s just look at is the person able to learn new things because that’s the inevitable, inevitable part of that person’s job. There’s gonna be new things in there, and new concepts and new technology and so forth.

Ian Bowie
And I suppose it’s also a question of not only do they have the ability to learn new things, but how quickly.

Michael Stormbom
How quickly, and certainly a willingness to learn.

Ian Bowie
But do you think then that that automatically discriminates against older workers?

Michael Stormbom
No, not necessarily.

Ian Bowie
But in the minds of younger people?

Michael Stormbom
In the minds of younger people – yeah, you mean, from that perspective, I think yes, there’s definitely that ageism, that if you’re older you’re set in your ways and can’t learn new things. I think there’s definitely that’s prejudice.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Yeah. So the danger is if you’ve got young managers, looking at older workers, they’re probably thinking whether it’s consciously or subconsciously, it’s probably easier to get rid of this person than to try and teach them new tricks.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, I think so. Definitely and I think that’s a huge sort of loss for Finland that we don’t… well ageism, basically, too.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. I think it’s pretty endemic isn’t it really.

Michael Stormbom
It is, it is.

Ian Bowie
Yes. Which is…

Michael Stormbom
Very difficult also once you reach a certain age to find find a new job and just…

Ian Bowie
Yeah. And yet, what I think is quite interesting is a lot of the new developments that come in the industry are actually developed by older workers. It’s not necessarily you know, young superstars who are developing these things. I mean, even you know, let’s take the internet. Tim Berners Lee, I mean, I can’t remember how old he was when he actually came up with it, but he certainly wasn’t in his 20s or even in his 30s.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, I mean, experience is a good thing.

Ian Bowie
Absolutely. But so what’s the problem in Finland?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, indeed. And I’m in just since this podcast is about AI, I mean, most of the concepts are decades old, really. At the end of the day, it’s just because we now have your computer power to actually do all these things that it has sort of caught on finally, in a way.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, absolutely. But going back to virtual Well, of course, we know the term virtual assistant. I mean, that’s, that’s been around for a long time, but and, you know, of course, virtual receptionists in hotels, and I suppose eventually waiters and waitresses and baristas and mixologists in bars and things like that. It’s all going to be probably run by AI driven robots or cyborgs or whatever you want to call them. But I see all of this as being at the lower end of the scale in terms of employment and employability. But what about when we start ramping up a little bit let’s go into teaching into university lecturing, consulting.

Michael Stormbom
Or even programming. Yeah. So there are that certainly, there are already those algorithms that you can, like okay, I need this type of function. And then it just suggests something, for it, all they’ve really done is that they’ve taken all of this sort of source code available, they turned and run it through a model and then it will, then it will start to suggest the best thing that you have the closest thing to what you are looking for. It’s kinda interesting, right? So you can at the moment, you can sort of automate this or like basic tasks, tasks are already been done before. Kind of say it’s not not replacing the programmer. No, just yet, but sort of freeing up the programmers mind to focus on the on the stuff on the novel part of the application.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, yeah. But are we going to get to a stage where AI can really take you know, the high end intellectual jobs? So I’m talking about you know, AI in philosophy. Could you have a philosophical AI…

Michael Stormbom
That could be quite interesting. So there is already this, this huge English language model, you put in some text and it will… write, so can then like go write an article about this or that and it will based on that it will sort of an article for you.

Ian Bowie
That still, I mean, I’m thinking along the..

Michael Stormbom
Why not? Then if you have a philosopher AI, then what is the meaning of life? And…

Ian Bowie
I think therefore I am. Yeah, but you see, we’ve been talking now about your next colleague might be an algorithm or you know, you have a virtual assistant, but might you have a boss? That is an algorithm. Might you actually

Michael Stormbom
I think a lot of companies would be run a lot better?

Ian Bowie
Yeah. But is that possible that one day, you end up working for a machine?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, why not? I mean, I think it well, you could even have an AI that displays leadership and is able to, is able to motivate you better than than a human being why not?

Ian Bowie
Well, this is the thing isn’t it, yeah.

Michael Stormbom
Being able to provide positive reinforcement and the inspiring you and…

Ian Bowie
Yeah, and if if they’ve created the right kind of hologram you wouldn’t even know it was a machine.

Michael Stormbom
Not necessarily no.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. I mean, imagine if…

Michael Stormbom
You might be a little bit suspicious if you’re like, I’ve never seen a boss in the office, but…

Ian Bowie
But this is the thing you see, maybe you’ve only ever seen the boss on a TV screen or on Zoom.

Michael Stormbom
And of course, if we all work remotely. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
Absolutely. So you wouldn’t know would you, unless there was some serious interference and then the boss start, the faces flickering. Oh, hang on a minute.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, something went awry yes.

Ian Bowie
Would it really matter? I mean, I think that’s that’s another question. You know, if you’re paid well and you’re highly motivated, and you feel that, you know, this is a great place to work. Does it really matter if your boss is a machine or not? I wouldn’t have thought so would you.

Michael Stormbom
No. And I mean, I think there will be probably be just a few different stages. So that’s like in like the first virtual boss that’s introduced I think, some people will be very excited by the notion other people will maybe be repulsed by it or whatever. But so that’s in the initial stages and in the in the later stage of course, then it’s just part of everyday life, so your boss may be an AI or not…

Ian Bowie
And of course takes out the danger of any office romances doesn’t it, you know, you could never marry the boss.

Michael Stormbom
No a little bit difficult during these remote times.

Ian Bowie
I married the machine for the money. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I mean, do you think we’ll still be in working life when when all this comes to fruition? Or…

Michael Stormbom
Good question. I mean, I guess we have to start talking about universal basic income and things like that, because, but I mean in general, certainly automation will take a lot of away a lot of jobs and and, will it destroy more jobs than it creates? That is the big question?

Ian Bowie
Well, I think simple jobs it probably will.

Michael Stormbom
I pretty much everything that can be automated will be automated. I think so.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Yeah, well, of course it will because I mean, it’s a profit motive as well, isn’t it? But I suppose…

Michael Stormbom
Profit motive. Yeah. And I think in our previous episode, we also talked about the sort of the the notion of a robot tax.

Ian Bowie
You talked about it. Yeah. I don’t know. Do you go back to the Dark Ages, you know, the people who are practical, who can use their hands and make things.

Michael Stormbom
Well, the way things are going, that’s probably probably where we’re gonna end up, so…

Ian Bowie
I have a horrible feeling that actually we might all end up back in the countryside. With a potato field and a cow.

Michael Stormbom
but of course, having our potato field I mean, these are urban gardens, and if we were to be freed up to work with your hands as well. You have a universal basic income and you can grow your own food.

Ian Bowie
You can grow your own food. Yes, you have to think so. Don’t you. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. Well, another thing was, there was this article there about this new data center just now. They’re gonna be constructing there in Espoo. More jobs coming there and there will be a data center.

Ian Bowie
lots more jobs, energy and a very good looking power station as well. Or substation? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Possibly controlled by AI. I don’t know.

Michael Stormbom
One can possibly think that there will be AI there controlling the…

Ian Bowie
Well, I think there is because apparently, you know, the substations nobody works. It doesn’t need anybody. Completely automated.

Michael Stormbom
Probably monitored remotely.

Ian Bowie
Of course it is, yeah. Incredible, really. Yeah. So that’s probably actually it’s true that there is a very good example of automation taking jobs. Because there we were talking about this with this chap that I know. And, and he was saying, there was another substation, it was further up north in Finland. And he showed me on Google Maps and there was a substation and there were all these houses and these are all the workers houses and the managers houses. Back in the day. It probably employed 100 people. Today, nobody. Yeah, yeah. It’s all gone. I mean, the houses are still there, and people live in them, but they’re not employed by the electricity company.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. And not to go off on a tangent. But it reminds me because my great grandfather, he lived here in Turku, he worked as he worked for the sugar factory that has been torn down for decades now, but there was a sugar factory there by the, near, by Aurajoki. So he actually he lived in one of the wooden houses right next to that, so that was sort of like the sugar factory people that was kinda the same idea that you live right next door to your job.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, yeah. Well, that was how it was back in the day. All these old factories. The factory was the lifeblood of the whole community.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed.

Ian Bowie
They provided the housing, the medical center, the school, everything. It’s all gone now, of course. So if they’re going to create all these jobs in Espoo, they can also build all the houses that people need to live in and maybe a school and a medical center. Interesting. Wwhy not? You know, I mean, these companies are massive, and they’ve got huge resources, especially financial resources. Why not? Invest in altruistic projects like look after your workers properly.

Michael Stormbom
Would be common sense to just look after your after your people for sure.

Ian Bowie
Well, you think, wouldn’t you, and not only that, but educate the next generation? Yeah, so

Michael Stormbom
And give them the competence that they need to thrive in

Ian Bowie
Absolutely.

Michael Stormbom
For sure.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. And automate everything. So you could have, you could have virtual doctors in your health center, and virtual nurses.

Michael Stormbom
Virtual teachers.

Ian Bowie
Virtual teachers. Absolutely. Yeah.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai