#3: Social Media and Manipulation, Part 2

Ian Bowie
Hello and welcome to AI Unfiltered with me Ian Bowie and our resident expert Michael Stormbom, where we will be talking about everything to do with AI in our modern digital society and what the future holds for all of us.

Michael Stormbom
Continuing the conversation that we started about social media and manipulation in the previous episode,

Ian Bowie
we’ve also been talking a lot about manipulation and about fake news. But of course, we’re a little bit guilty of thinking the whole world speaks English and the whole world doesn’t actually speak English does it? Now we know that Facebook has a massive team of moderators, looking for content that’s not suitable.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. Offensive content.

Ian Bowie
It is in English, isn’t it offensive content? Thank you. But are they doing the same thing in other languages,

Michael Stormbom
Not to the same extent as they do in English. So for example, in the United States, where of course Spanish is widely spoken, so they don’t they don’t do content moderation in Spanish, anywhere near to the same extent as they do for English which, which in practice means then that misinformation and offensive content is allowed to spread. So more and more wider in the Indian Spanish speaking communities rather than and then as compared to the English ones. And, indeed, I mean, this applies to all languages besides English that they don’t really do content moderation to the same extent, meaning that misinformation and offensive content is allowed to spread in other languages in English.

Ian Bowie
This is potentially very dangerous because I think we know the Hispanic community in the United States is actually rather large. If you can manipulate them because nobody’s regulating the content they see. You can manipulate an election.

Michael Stormbom
Indeed, indeed, absolutely. So So and not only in the United States, but of course anywhere…

Ian Bowie
Anywhere in the world. So does that mean that people like Facebook, need to take this on board and up their game with other languages?

Michael Stormbom
I think so. Especially now that there’s been been so much about in the news as well, that this is indeed the case. I think, Facebook wanting to escape the wrath of the regulators will certainly have to show that it’s able to regulate itself.

Ian Bowie
Is it possible to regulate Facebook into bankruptcy?

Michael Stormbom
Doubtful how it’s I think Facebook is a little bit too big to fail at this point. Is an agenda

Ian Bowie
So you couldn’t you don’t think you can regulate the amount of business

Michael Stormbom
Regulate amount of business now how many you can possibly curtail. Yeah, no, but I think that’s an interesting question as well. Now that there are calls for regulation of Facebook and then Facebook having this manipulation playbook at their disposal, how are they gonna respond can do sort of like turn a turn to devoting public against these regulators? I think that’s an interesting question, and can we trust them not to use their power for evil? Well, obviously we cannot. I think that has been well established already. But

Ian Bowie
I think maybe we haven’t got enough time to talk about meta. But this is obviously one man’s vision for the future of the world. At least the world that’s connected to the internet.

Michael Stormbom
I think the metaverse could be could be another episode actually.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cuz that’s a whole world of virtual nothingness. It’s almost the matrix under a different name. Yeah. It’s a bit of what is real. What isn’t real? Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
And I think the most important thing, what is the bloody point?

Ian Bowie
And what is the point? Yeah, that’s right. Absolutely. You know, I mean, why do you want to live in a world that doesn’t exist?

Michael Stormbom
Oh, indeed. Well, I mean, to some extent, we already do that to include with our faces to the to the screen. So in that sense, these are this is just taking it one step further. The metaverse. I don’t know if there’s, I don’t think it’s that profound a leap in a sense that it’s made out to be I think, if you look beyond a marketing hype, we already live in a metaverse. In that sense.

Ian Bowie
What are these people actually doing on their phones? When they’re walking down the road? staring at a screen? It’s quite true, isn’t it?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. But in terms of manipulation because of course, that’s that’s a topic as well when it comes to social media. They because they very successfully manipulate people into engaging with with their social media platform and staying on their platform because that is certainly manipulation, as well.

Ian Bowie
Is it is it also possible to perhaps I probably shouldn’t say this actually is something that’s going out into the big bad wide world, but can you imagine somebody walking down the street in a city and they’re looking at their phone, and then suddenly, there’s an instruction that says turn left now, and they do straight under a bus? So we decided let’s get rid of that one over there. So you have their phone being turned left now? Boom, good bye.

Michael Stormbom
Haven’t there been cases when people have been trusting their their? Yes, yeah. Trusting it to a fault under the reality does not quite correspond.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, that’s true. But that’s not deliberate.

Michael Stormbom
It’s not deliberate, but. But that’s a demonstration. of the fact that it could be possible to do that deliberately as well.

Ian Bowie
Exactly. That’s what I’m thinking, you know, is that also a potential future? That somebody somewhere can just get people to do anything? Simply by flashing it on their phone?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I mean, I definitely, definitely see that as a possibility

Ian Bowie
People are that stupid. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
I think it comes back to the critical thinking skills and having a willingness to think critically. Yeah, and and not have your face glued to the phone. I think that’s the…

Ian Bowie
Exactly. But you see everywhere. I go out walking the dog, and you pass people and they’re just staring at this screen. Mothers pushing prams, looking at a screen, possibly forgetting that they have got a baby at all. Yeah, it’s quite scary.

Michael Stormbom
And sort of forgetting to live in the moment. I’ve been to many concerts well, when they were still uncontroversial, allowed, and people are still they are there but they’re watching it to their phone like recording it instead of being in the moment that you can experiencing, experiencing the thing.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a pretty scary future that we’re painting here, isn’t it? I think.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, yeah. I don’t know if we have any good news.

Ian Bowie
Right. Okay. I tell you what, as a round up, let’s have five good things about social media. Oh, that you can think of…

Michael Stormbom
Let’s see if we can make it through five bye. Bye bye. But I do think the big one is that it allows us to, to interact with each other over over great distances. I think that’s but again, of course, we were perfectly able to do so in a pen or pen and paper even. But I mean I do think I do think that’s the that’s the main advantage really is possibility to interact with people over and people not necessarily in your immediate vicinity. I do think that’s the I think that’s the big advantage. But, again, we don’t need social media as it currently exists to do that. And I mean, we already discussed email and different forms of the precursors of social media in the in the 90s. So I mean…

Ian Bowie
Well, I remember if you wanted to get hold of somebody quickly, you made a phone call. And if they weren’t there, you had the opportunity to send a fax.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed. So maybe a return to the fax machines

Ian Bowie
and the world the world the world still turned, business still ran. Perhaps, companies weren’t making quite the ridiculous amounts of money that they’re making today. But they were still profitable, they still employed people. So personally, I wouldn’t see a problem with a little bit turning the clock back. In Japan, they still use fax machines actually. They do. The Japanese still use fax machines. And they still use pen and paper. Yeah, well, so I wonder I wonder what Facebook’s penetration is in Japan.

Michael Stormbom
That’s a good question. And I’m I don’t know if there’s any like local social media. You would think there is but

Ian Bowie
Yeah. But I remember talking to a friend of mine who is Japanese and he said, if it’s not written down on on, on a piece of paper, he doesn’t trust it.

Michael Stormbom
That is probably a sound sound approach.

Ian Bowie
That was.. Yeah. Quite an interesting comment. And it really made me think actually, that if it’s on a computer screen, anybody could put it there.

Michael Stormbom
That’s very true. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
But that’s maybe a whole new discussion for the future.

Michael Stormbom
We can discuss the return to the return on the printed paper

Ian Bowie
return of paper indeed. Absolutely. Yeah. I still use a paper diary. I actually went out yesterday and bought the refill for it for next year. Yeah. So

Michael Stormbom
I mean, I write write all my notes, which I mean, it is a learning thing as well as if it’s sort of like from your head to your hand. It’s like just being myself I think this will like not retention of knowledge works easily because you sort of like interact with your, you engage like multiple

Ian Bowie
Yeah, I mean, there are people now that write directly onto an iPad. They use the magic pen and then…

Michael Stormbom
They write you can do it, but it doesn’t have quite I’d say, I don’t…

Ian Bowie
know. I still use a fountain pen. A real ink fountain pen. And I fill in every now and again. Well, that’s how old fashioned I am with my writing. Of course, I’d still write on a computer as well, but the only thing that I wish I could do is perhaps improve my handwriting but that’s another story. Yeah,

Michael Stormbom
well, that’s. I think they’ve done some research on that as well. Well, Students’, well, pupils’ handwriting has just deteriorated is rather awful because no one reads Right, right spins on bendability stays.

Ian Bowie
But guess what?

Michael Stormbom
Guess what?

Ian Bowie
I bet you any money. There is a handwriting course that you can access on the internet.

Michael Stormbom
I am quite sure yes.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, that’s almost that’s almost a joke, isn’t it? Really? Yeah. Learn learn to write by accessing the internet. Fantastic. Oh, there’s a YouTube video. And we haven’t even begun to talk about YouTube.

Michael Stormbom
No, I think that deserves an episode of its own as well.

Ian Bowie
Absolutely. But I think I kind of see YouTube in a much, much more positive light than Facebook. There’s lots of useful and interesting stuff on YouTube. There’s stuff like all the How To videos. Quite useful, I think. I mean, I know a guy and his Jaguar. The the event stopped opening every time you turn the car on the vents automatically open so that then you can get the fresh air in. And so he wondered, I wonder what province he went straight to YouTube. He found the answer and he also found a video that showed him how to fix it. And it was one tiny little plastic cog that cost about five cents. And it was about an hour of his time to replace him.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, indeed. I mean, I look I look up those videos constantly. For example, I have a 3d printer at home. Welcome to 2021 or 2022, depending on when this episode is broadcast, but and then it broke down. So well. There’s a YouTube video for okay how to fix it. Apparently commonplace enough when there needed to be video for it.

Ian Bowie
And it probably needed a part that you could 3d print.

Michael Stormbom
Possibly, I was surprised to find because I’ve I dabbled quite a bit with electronics and IoT. So have I have this vast, vast archive of different components and circuitry and so forth. And when I opened it up, I realized they were using the exact same circuitry that I bought, bought from China. So it was kind of interesting.

Ian Bowie
Wow. All right. So it was an easy fix.

Michael Stormbom
It was a very easy fix. Be a bit nerve wracking because you’re voiding the warranty obviously, by all means, but but

Ian Bowie
So it was under warranty.

Michael Stormbom
It was still under warranty. But yeah, I got it fixed.

Ian Bowie
Okay. It’s an interesting one. Yeah. So you trusted yourself more than you trusted the manufacturer to fix it for you.

Michael Stormbom
Well, if I wanted to use it now then I had to fix it now.

Ian Bowie
Where would you like to send it if you needed to fix it?

Michael Stormbom
Well, I would probably go to the store where I bought it right? Yeah.

Ian Bowie
So if you printed off anything interesting

Michael Stormbom
I have printed plenty of interesting stuff. Maybe that’s an episode of its own.

Ian Bowie
I’ll never use useful. Not interesting, useful.

Michael Stormbom
Useful. Well, I mean, I use it to well, I’m quite interested in 3d modelling not that I’m that good at it. But, but a lot of this will occur when you need some part for something. So actually, I wanted to I have some frames that I wanted to put on the wall and it didn’t have quite the right hanger. So then I painted a new hanger for it so I mean, they’re totally practical.

Ian Bowie
Yes. Good. Cool. Yeah. And I guess the pricing has come down a bit as well, isn’t it?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I mean, I paid like 350 bucks for for mine how many to suddenly an entry level 3d printer but perfectly fine for a complete beginner in in 3d printing, certainly.

Ian Bowie
And what about software? Did you have to invest in software as well.

Michael Stormbom
No there comes software along with it under for 3d modeling there’s for example, blender which is a free where 3d modeling software so

Ian Bowie
Okay, and you’ve self self taught all this stuff learned it,

Michael Stormbom
self learned yes, by looking at online courses.

Ian Bowie
online courses, there you go. So there really is a lot of use for the Internet, as well.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, well, I don’t think it’s controversial to say that there are uses for the internet…

Ian Bowie
so maybe actually, we just need to get rid of social media.

Michael Stormbom
Get rid of it, right. At least it needs to be

Ian Bowie
Rip it out like a cancer.

Michael Stormbom
No, but I mean, I think there needs to be quite heavy, heavy regulation. I think that’s the I think that’s the only way to get it in, get it into. But whether is practically possible to do so.

Ian Bowie
Do you not think that if you suddenly have something that needs to be heavily regulated? Maybe you shouldn’t have it in the first place? Because he must, because fundamentally, if it needs that level of regulation, there must be something very wrong with it in the first place.

Michael Stormbom
Well, I don’t know about that. I mean, I think airplanes probably require quite a lot of regulation and are quite useful. Well, let me get into the discussion of whether people should be flying in the first place. But maybe that’s not our topic. Yeah. Oh, but on many, many aspects of what I’ve actually quite heavily regulated the food we put in into ourselves, for example.

Ian Bowie
Because I mean, all right, airplanes and food. I mean, I think that’s more health and safety, isn’t it? I mean, we don’t want airplanes crashing into each other, landing on top of houses. And we certainly don’t want to be putting poisonous things into our bodies, simply because the food manufacturer hasn’t been regulated enough.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, but I think the same can be said about social media and regulating it for health and safety.

Ian Bowie
But is it even necessary food is necessary? Alright? Are aeroplanes necessary? Certainly useful if you want to travel long distances quickly. But social media is it really necessary I mean, what about social media and mental health?

Michael Stormbom
No, indeed. I mean, I don’t think you can say to use the internet really necessary at all. I mean, I think people are perfectly fine before the advent of the internet. But I mean, certainly when it comes to social media and mental health, I think it’s been established as a rather negative effect. So one example being Instagram and people posting filter pictures of themselves and sort of body image issues determines building to teenage depression, social media. I think it’s been generally shown it social media makes us makes us less happy because of course, everyone puts up a facade on social media you only post to post the good news or the stuff that makes you look good on social media. So thereby giving you the impression that everyone around you has a much happier life than then you, of course, they give you this this or like,

Ian Bowie
So what you’re actually saying is the whole thing’s an illusion.

Michael Stormbom
I think it’s very much an illusion. I mean, we were talking about the metaverse and, you know, having your avatar terrible. Of course, we already have avatars or online or online persona, and talking about filter filtering there as well. I mean, we only put there what you want to put there right in our social media presence. Mostly I should say

Ian Bowie
so it’s actually… listening to you, my interpretation of social media is it’s less and less relevant, because it’s just not real. It’s pointless. It makes people depressed. Possibly even suicidal. Everybody’s lying. It’s a false reality.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed. And and if you agree with that, please comment in our social media, absolutely No, but. No, but. I mean, indeed, I think there’s there’s much with it just isn’t real. I think that’s, that’s fair to say. Well, something can be not real and sort of useful at the same time but certainly, but

Ian Bowie
I’m trying to think of an example.

Michael Stormbom
Computer games

Ian Bowie
You’re not telling me they’re not real.

Michael Stormbom
Well, yes, I am. But it has been shown that they have like an a positive impact on Well, motor skills and cognitive skills and so forth.

Ian Bowie
That’s games, it’s fun. Yeah,

Michael Stormbom
but it’s not real.

Ian Bowie
No, but I mean, the truth I think all right, the difference maybe this is only me thinking out loud now. But the difference between a computer game and social media is that I think we all know if we’re properly adjusted that the game is not real. But social media tries to persuade us that it is actually the reality. And that’s dangerous because that that that’s actually we go back to the topic of today’s podcast manipulation. That’s highly manipulative when you’ve got something that is trying to persuade you that it is real. And it is relevant, and that this is what you need to buy into. That’s really screwing with your mind. I mean, a game is just a game you know, you play it, and then you can leave it Okay, of course there are people that get sucked in and end up with with various problems because they start believing the game is real. But the vast majority of people they can, you know, they can make or they can tell the difference.

Michael Stormbom
No, I mean, I mean, certainly that’s a that’s a fair point. There’s also the intersection of gaming and social media. So social gaming for those games that are connected to the to social media as well. So they’re not necessarily two distinct concepts necessarily. Obvious question again. The question yes, but So social media purports

Ian Bowie
social media reports to be reality, whereas the game doesn’t.

Michael Stormbom
True.

Ian Bowie
And that’s where the manipulation comes in.

Michael Stormbom
No, absolutely. So absolutely. So and that’s certainly very, very dangerous. And

Ian Bowie
so the conclusion from today is that absolutely, social media is manipulative.

Michael Stormbom
I think we can certainly say that. I think we can make it a little bit more nuanced in saying that social media is not necessarily consciously manipulative.

Ian Bowie
Do you really believe that? I mean, social media as an entity, but what about the people behind it?

Michael Stormbom
I think it’s a bit of both personally. So what I mean by not consciously manipulative is that there there is this employment of this like wisdom of the crowd approach to like the content that you see. So if you like a particular content if you engage with particular people, and it was not sort of recommending particular types of content to it, so there is, so there’s that aspect of that wisdom of the crowd running amok and causing this echo chamber. So that’s not necessarily it’s not necessarily a deliberate thing, but, but in addition to that, we do know that there is also these deliberate efforts to to control what content you see, and what content you don’t see.

Ian Bowie
So maybe the conclusion from today is get off social media, and start playing computer games.

Michael Stormbom
I think so. And listen to our podcast.

Ian Bowie
And listen to our podcast. Indeed. Thank you very much.

Michael Stormbom
Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai