#6: Red and Green AI
What’s the impact of AI and digitalisation on the environment, and can AI ever be green? Ian and Michael discuss the concept of red and green AI.
Automated Transcript
Ian Bowie
Hello and welcome to AI unfiltered with me Ian Bowie and our resident expert, Michael Stormbom, where we will be talking about everything to do with AI in our modern digital society and what the future holds for all of us.
Right, so the subject for today folks is actually red versus green AI. Until I started looking into this, I didn’t know there was such a thing as red or green AI. I think most of us probably sit at our computers, access to the internet, and pay absolutely no thought whatsoever to the fact that somewhere, there are thousands and thousands of servers, working very, very hard to serve our ever growing need for information. And of course, AI is extremely energy intensive, isn’t it, Michael?
Michael Stormbom
Yes indeed. And I hope to do my part to popularize the terms red and green AI because I do think it’s an important thing to to talk about, but yes.
Ian Bowie
Well, perhaps we can start with in your opinion, what makes an AI red?
Michael Stormbom
Yeah. So there are two aspects. So one is in creation of AI. So training of the underlying machine learning models, very resource intensive and also increasing in the amount of resources needed because they, so these AI systems are are ever growing in size. So that’s one aspect and then of course, just us in using those.
Ian Bowie
Alright, of course, if it is very energy intensive, it also means that whoever is researching and working and developing AI, they need access to these huge amounts of energy.
Now, we probably have to assume that the people most able to access those levels of energy are here in the west. So do you think at the moment, we are creating a divide between those that have and that are a greater – I should say a greater divide between those that have and those that have not, and that all AI is becoming very, very western centric or at least rich country centric. Of course, the Chinese, of course, they have the financial ability and access to energy also to create their own AI, as do one imagines the Russians. And then there’s the West, but what about the rest of the world?
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, I mean, definitely, because this requires so much resources that, I mean, certainly. There’s certainly a great divide. One could of course, then argue whether, whether these are very energy intensive AI systems are needed into in the first place, like what value do they actually bring. But yeah, I mean, definitely not just in terms of AI but just access to digital infrastructure. And all that entails and all the benefits that brings, I mean certainly.
Ian Bowie
So I mean, but is there ever going to be a way to correct the balance? I mean, you know, are we going to see massive data farms on the African continent and throughout Southeast Asia, for example. You know, will it ever be possible to create the level of infrastructure that the whole world requires to ensure that everybody has access to this type of technology?
Michael Stormbom
Well, I think it’s a matter of investment, right. So I think and a matter of..
Ian Bowie
And also power generation.
Michael Stormbom
And power generation. So I mean, one thing is that the hardware, of course, becomes more energy efficient over time. But it also also means that these AI systems keep on growing because if you can use the underlying hardware more efficiently than you can also grow in size the thing that uses it.
Ian Bowie
One of the things that seems to drive AI is the need for accuracy. Now of course accuracy requires considerable community computational power. So in order to reduce the need for so much power, could developers be willing to accept less accuracy for more efficiency?
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s been the trade-off for…
Ian Bowie
But isn’t the whole point of AI about accuracy, you know, we’ve talked about, for example, consumer tracking in e-commerce. Surely, that type of AI is only as good as it is accurate. If it’s not accurate. It’s pointless. You know, if it’s not pushing the right products to the right people.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I think we want to qualify that one a bit. So I mean, certainly accurate, but up to what point I mean, I mean it is impossible to create a system that’s 100% accurate data that is just impossible.
Ian Bowie
We talked about self driving cars, and we need 100% accuracy, don’t we? I mean,
Michael Stormbom
And we’ll come back to why possibly automated vehicles are not a good idea in a future episode. Question is how close to 100% you, and I’m going to consumer tracking is one thing and again, they’re also when it comes to accuracy. You want to be accurate in the in the right circumstances, right?
Ian Bowie
I mean, I’m sure I’m Amazon, want 100% accuracy in their pick and pack warehouses.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, but I mean in terms of customer recommendation, so. I mean, if you’re reasonably accurate, in pushing products to a person who’s like, Who’s more likely to buy, that’s more important than just spamming a person who wasn’t never gonna buy anything.
Ian Bowie
That’s just a numbers game, isn’t it? I mean…
Michael Stormbom
No, but I mean, that’s what I mean by that with 100% accuracy isn’t necessarily the goal.
Ian Bowie
Yeah. Depending on the circumstance,.
Michael Stormbom
And likewise with autonomous autonomous vehicles. So I mean, the question about a 2% when it’s wrong, the question is, in what circumstances is it wrong because in some circumstances, it doesn’t matter. Whereas in others it might be fatal. So I think it’s not just necessarily about staring oneself blind, blindly at the like a percentage but rather, looking at where it is accurate and in what way it is accurate and what happens when it’s not accurate. So it’s…
Ian Bowie
So we’re now talking about selective accuracy.
Michael Stormbom
Yes. And I mean, you have to look at the actual use case for it. I think that’s a that’s the key thing, really.
Ian Bowie
Hmm. All right then. So we’ve got an understanding that AI is extremely energy intensive. But there is still the expression green AI. So what makes AI green as opposed to red?
Michael Stormbom
I’m gonna say that there isn’t such a thing as green AI. I think there’s greener AI. Because I mean, I mean, to the extentthat is, is anything that we do all that green?
Ian Bowie
Starting to become a bit of a philosophical question. I would say no, personally.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed. So I mean, we can be green up to a point. So I think that’s the same with AI. I think you’re green or if you for one thing if you’re aware. Of how much how in energy intensive these things are. And you work to optimize your system such that they use less energy, I think that’s, then you can have a system that’s greener, not necessarily green, but greener.
Ian Bowie
What about the source of the energy that they consume? Will that make them greener? So if they were if they were sourcing their energy, predominantly from hydroelectric or from wind power, wave power?
Michael Stormbom
Well, I mean…
Ian Bowie
So does that help?
I mean, certainly, I mean, using so called green energy, of course, that makes things certainly greener. AI systems included.
So what’s the answer? I mean, should we pick and choose AI projects, depending on their potential to consume energy?
Michael Stormbom
I think it should definitely be a consideration. Certainly. I mean, one area in particular, where, that these were massive models have become the norm. So natural language processing, so basic, analyzing, analyzing language in in various levels. So I mean, for example, that’s what Google and Facebook and so forth do with their, with their rather massive, massive models. And, again, so we get very good accuracy, but to what end is, I think is a relevant question.
Ian Bowie
So what’s the purpose.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed.
Ian Bowie
Yeah. I mean, what are your ideas? On how to solve the problem of researchers that do not have access to, for example, renewable energy?
Michael Stormbom
So research not having access to renewable,
Ian Bowie
We’re trying to, you know, if we if we want AI, well to become greener. And we’ve agreed, I think that at least having access to so called green energy, is at least one way of mitigating the, you know, level of energy consumption. How do we address the problem of researchers who just don’t have the possibility to access that type of energy?
Michael Stormbom
Well, I think we need to have more renewable energy available. I don’t see any way, any other sort of way. So done, when we invest and develop new power generation then it just has to it just has to be green. Yeah, I think that’s really the only other one if if we need more green energy, then we just have to make more green energy available.
Ian Bowie
Okay, that’s fair enough. And then what about the actual current use? Of energy? Do you think there should be more transparency regarding the true costs of AI with regard to energy use and CO2 emissions?
Michael Stormbom
I definitely think so. I mean, when you go to your store and you buy an electric appliance, like a fridge, I mean, it has an energy rating there, right? So, why not do the same for these AI systems? Because I mean, you can certainly calculate to some degree of accuracy at least, how much energy is being is being used. So, so definitely, I do think so. And, I mean, I mean, I said in the in the early onset of this pandemic, that we’re currently in it now that people are staying at home and driving lessons using less fossil fuels that that would be a good thing for the environment now that we are less mobile but I think using all of these Netflix and so forth, and streaming and whatnot, so in… probably came come out as a wash essentially, as far as the environment is concerned.
Ian Bowie
Yeah, I wonder if people actually realize what their CO2 footprint is, when they’re streaming. For example, Netflix, perhaps and maybe double screening by surfing the internet and buying themselves a new electronic gadget etc?
Michael Stormbom
No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think, I think there might even be the illusion that well, as I said, if you just stay at home and don’t move around don’t use fossil fuels that are somehow greener. But that’s not necessarily the case. Because of course, the more if you’re more at home of course you spend, you use more energy and electricity at home as well.
Ian Bowie
I suppose you don’t really think about it because I mean, you know, you plug your laptop in, and you’re using your laptop or desktop you don’t see a massive spike in your electric bill. You know, suddenly, I mean, I’ve been at home now for a year and a half, almost two years. And I don’t think there’s been very much movement in our electric bill. From me, streaming a little bit more. I stream music, I stream films. I surf the internet constantly. So I think in terms of domestic usage of energy, it doesn’t seem to have very much of an impact at all. So I haven’t really thought that I’m being less green. In fact, you’re quite right. I felt I’ve been more green because I haven’t been driving here there and everywhere. Yeah, indeed and not flying either.
Michael Stormbom
Well, I haven’t Well, I suppose not flying, that’s certainly helps. Yeah. Yeah, nobody I mean, it’s not necessarily the case at all that much greener. Staying at home. Not necessarily at least.
Ian Bowie
Yeah, maybe I even eat more as well. And that’s not green either. Is it?
Michael Stormbom
No plus if we’re less mobile, less moving about of course. Now I mean, that has a health impact, of course. Now more of a strain on the healthcare system.
Ian Bowie
If we think about the future, do you think because we’re increasingly going to be using systems that require, that rely heavily on AI so are we actually just going to become more and more and more energy hungry? In the future?
Michael Stormbom
That has certainly been a development so far, at least. I think so. Yes, to that one.
Ian Bowie
Because I mean, all right. So far, but isn’t it true to say that AI even today is still very much in its infancy. That there’s so much still to do that, you know, we haven’t even begun to tap into the real potential for what AI can achieve for us.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree with that. So if not in its infancy, at least in its adolescence. Yeah. At the very least. So yeah, I mean, certainly, it’s very much the beginning of the journey.
Ian Bowie
I certainly saw documentary recently. About everybody’s favorite online retailer. And they were saying that at their data center. There was a time when they got one new server a day. And now they’re taking in 1000s a month.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, so that’s a lot of electricity consumed by….
Ian Bowie
A huge amount of electricity. Yeah. So how, in your opinion, are we actually going to meet that ever increasing demand for power?
Michael Stormbom
I guess there will come a point where it just not no longer possible to generate generate more energy. I don’t know.
Ian Bowie
what’s going to happen then.
Michael Stormbom
The inevitable march to oblivion? Yes.
Ian Bowie
So the Doomsday Project. So should we actually be putting all our eggs in the AI basket?
Michael Stormbom
No. And I mean, it’s not just about AI. I mean, it’s about about using energy and electricity. More so should we? Should we be more? Should we look at more ways of using less of it?
Ian Bowie
Or should we just look at more ways of increasing efficiencies?
Michael Stormbom
That we definitely should and, and to some extent we are, but I think it’s a bit of both. I mean, it is. I don’t think it can grow infinitely.
Ian Bowie
All right. Well, here’s one for you. Do you actually think that most people even care. I mean…
Michael Stormbom
No, is the short answer.
Ian Bowie
Let’s take cryptocurrencies as a perfect example. I got quite interested in cryptocurrencies, simply because of kind of the the ethos behind them. Until I was made aware of the absolutely massive amount of energy that is required to mine them. And then my interest started to wane. But cryptos are only growing more and more people, even countries are starting to adopt them. Oh, yes. So are we basically on the road to energy hell, energy Armageddon?
Michael Stormbom
Well, I think we were on that road long before.
Ian Bowie
Well, we were.We were much we’re much more aware today than we were perhaps 20-30 years ago.
Michael Stormbom
Certainly.
Ian Bowie
And yet, all we’re doing is increasing our demand for energy. And kidding ourselves.
Michael Stormbom
I think that’s absolutely the case. Yeah.
Ian Bowie
But that doesn’t really help the people listening to this as it because they want answers, how do we stop it? How do we stop the madness?
Michael Stormbom
Well, it starts from being aware of it in the in the first place, I mean, when it comes to cryptos, for example, I mean, there still only only so many people are actually doing or using cryptocurrencies or mining, so there’s still a very, very small minority of….
Ian Bowie
But they energy they are using is phenomenal.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah. So if more people adopted I mean, it gets even worse. Certainly.
Ian Bowie
Yes. Yes. But people can’t help themselves. That is I don’t think they can.
Michael Stormbom
No, indeed, not I think history has shown that we are unable to help ourselves.
Ian Bowie
How do you wean yourself off your Alibaba habit? Or binging Netflix?
Michael Stormbom
I think there’s quite I think it’s quite a difficult one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don’t know if there is a good answer. Maybe…
Ian Bowie
We need to do perhaps a little bit of research into the greening of AI.
Michael Stormbom
I think we need to do plenty of research into that. Yes. And certainly raising awareness that it is a consideration to begin with. It’s a start if people are aware at least.
Ian Bowie
It’s a start if the right people are aware, and they’re willing to do something about it. But the problem the problem is a lot of a lot of AI is is about making money.
Michael Stormbom
I think just about all AI, is about making money really-
Ian Bowie
And improving conveniences, and so if there’s money to be made, and greater convenience to be had, I suspect it’s never going to stop.
Michael Stormbom
No, indeed, I think that comes back to the conversation we had about companies behaving legally versus paving ethically. I think it’s a if you don’t put constraints on how a company may operate then they will do what you do to maximize profit.
Ian Bowie
But the only way that you can put constraints on companies is through consumer behavior. If people stopped buying, they have to listen.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, and I mean, that comes to I mean, certainly, consumers have been driving greening to some extent. I mean, there’s the term green washing, that you sort of portray yourself to be eco friendly, so as to get business even though in practice you might not actually be all that green. So….
Ian Bowie
But when when you talk about consumers, who are basically people, what are you willing to give up? To be green?
Michael Stormbom
I say here as we sit among all this nice electronics equipment?
Ian Bowie
Exactly. You know, I mean, what am I willing to give up? To be green? Where should I start when I give up my car? No. Do I want to give up my television No. access to the internet? Absolutely. Not. My mobile phone? No. So it’s a bit sad. But it is a hard truth. Yeah, and you heard it here first.
Michael Stormbom
That’s a sad thing, indeed, if we are the first ones to say that. No, but I mean, I think it comes it comes down to we need we need to consume less and…
Ian Bowie
Who’s gonna give it up first?
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed. Absolutely.
Ian Bowie
How many jumpers do you really need or shirts or trousers or pairs of shoes?
Michael Stormbom
No, absolutely. So…
Ian Bowie
And especially when the Internet is absolutely chock full of so called influences trying to persuade you to buy even more.
Michael Stormbom
Yeah, indeed. Now, that’s a profession, being an influencer…
Ian Bowie
That is another profession and I’m sure there’s there’s AI has a role to play in that as well.
Michael Stormbom
Well, certainly, the influencer using social media. I mean, of course, it’s AI there in the background pushing the content too, isn’t it?
Ian Bowie
So I think we’ve got to the stage where we’ve come to an agreement that there is basically no hope.
Michael Stormbom
Bit of a down note to end an episode on.
Ian Bowie
We can’t end on a downer, can we? Let’s put it this way, there’s obviously a lot still to do. There’s a lot and a lot to be done.
Michael Stormbom
Yes, yes. But it will require aggressive action. I do think so.
Ian Bowie
Aggressive action and lots of clever people who think in the same way.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai