#26: The Metaverse

Ian Bowie
Hello and welcome to AI unfiltered with me Ian Bowie and our resident expert, Michael Stormbom, where we will be talking about everything to do with AI in our modern digital society and what the future holds for all of us.

Ian Bowie
So in this episode, we thought we’d talk a little bit about something that you’ve possibly heard about, what Mr. Zuckerberg from Facebook likes to term the Metaverse, and I think the big question is, in the future, how much of our lives would we like to be virtual?

Michael Stormbom
That’s a good question, indeed. And I would argue that the metaverse in many ways already exist. I mean, we spend so much time already on our various devices and our eyeballs are glued to our mobile phones at all times. So in that sense, we already have this Metaverse, this, shall we say, blended reality, where we have actual reality and whatever happens on our screens, so in a way, in a way, the Metaverse as proposed by Zuckerberg is just taking that to the next level but virtual reality and augmented reality and whatnot. You’re just taking it…

Ian Bowie
Well hang on. Well, that that that suddenly, in my mind raises the question of what is virtual reality? I mean, yeah, okay. You know, you’re stuck on your, your mobile phone or your tablet or you’re looking at your computer screen or you’re looking at maybe all of them together, and triple screening. But is that really that’s not really virtual reality? And I mean, you might be watching a film on one, you’re possibly looking at the news on another, and you’re catching up it with social media on the third device. But that’s not really virtual reality, and that is how I understand it.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, but I mean, virtual, I mean, virtual reality is one thing, I mean, that’s just taking it one step further, which is that, you know, you just have the the viewing screens, like, really tightly up to your eyeballs.

Ian Bowie
And is this losing sense of reality?

Michael Stormbom
Well, I think it is. And my contention is that the step to virtual reality from our current state of affairs is not that great leap actually. I think, I think it’s made to look more revolutionary than it actually is.

Ian Bowie
It would actually be quite interesting to know, you know, when we look at sort of the penetration of digital devices, what that penetration is, with regard to age groups. Because again, you know, here in the West, we have quite an aging demographic. So, yes, we do, I admit, see all these young people glued to some kind of digital device, and lots of gamers and everything else. But, you know, it’s very easy to be misled by what you see. And to start thinking that this is the norm.

Michael Stormbom
That’s true.

Ian Bowie
You know, I mean, I’m in my late 50s. I still know a lot of people who read a real newspaper, a real newspaper, paper newspaper, and they don’t plan to give that up anytime soon. You know, the vast majority of people that I know they read real books, they don’t want e-books. They’re not interested. But the idea of putting on a virtual reality headset. I don’t think it would happen in their lifetime to them anyway.

Michael Stormbom
No, but I mean, in Zuckerberg’s vision for this Metaverse, there’s is this sort of like, you can go seamlessly from from the virtual reality to the to actual reality, in a way that you can sort of… like it would be if we would have like an avatar here next to us like a third co-host and I don’t know how that work. We’ll be wearing this for like, augmented reality glasses, so we will be able to see both the actual, the physical realm and this sort of digital co-host right next to us, kind of. I think it sounds cooler than it actually is.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I can see that for his generation and anyone younger than him. That could become their reality quite easily and you know, for them to make a move, or to be able to sort of step in and step out of those worlds could even become very natural for them. But for my generation, I think the threshold is far, far greater. And I think the level of resistance will be much greater as well. I just don’t think we want it necessarily.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. I mean, for the younger generation who was already living most or at least part of their lives online.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, you know, I have because I don’t know what his vision for this Metaverse is, but as an educator myself, I could absolutely see tremendous value in creating, you know, for example, in history lessons, the ability to be able to step back in time and to meet somebody from the 16th century or the medieval period, or any other period in history for that matter.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, but I think that’s more about, you know, virtual reality technology, as opposed to this Metaverse thing, of which virtual reality is possibly a component.

Ian Bowie
Or a virtual classroom.

Michael Stormbom
Or a virtual classroom, yeah.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Again, you know, I don’t actually see a problem with the virtual classrooms. In fact, personally, I would say that it might even be far more effective than the real classrooms that we have today. With over 30 kids in the classroom.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, if one of the kids are bothering you can just turn on. Absolutely. Take the remote control and turn off. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
Well, no, but I think it lends a possibility to far more tailored educational experiences for children. You’ve got different children, and often, you know, disruptive children in classrooms are only disruptive half the time because they’re bored. They’re not engaged. The style of the teaching is of no interest to them or or even the subject matter itself might be irrelevant. So you know, if you can tailor an educational experience, almost to an individual level. That education is going to be far, far more beneficial, both to the individual and also later on to society.

Michael Stormbom
Well, no, I agree. But I think that’s not really about the Metaverse, that’s about I mean, we spoke about this in a previous episode on AI and education. So I think that’s a different, different…

Ian Bowie
Maybe maybe we a little bit differ because my idea, you know, Zuckerberg’s vision is just to create a virtual world. I think for him, it’s about work, isn’t it, that you can step into a virtual meeting or you can attend a virtual seminar or a virtual presentation.

Michael Stormbom
No I think it’s more about the social, social side. So you can go to a gig with your, with your friends, but you’re not actually there in person. Or the band is not necessarily there in person.

Ian Bowie
It’s that superficial, right? There was a deeper meaning to the Metaverse than that.

Michael Stormbom
Have you ever been on Facebook?

Ian Bowie
I think I looked at it once. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
It would be about you’re really leading your entire life would be this sort of mish-mash of virtual…

Ian Bowie
Your entire life. Quite a large part. But it’s work, as well as your social life and your work life. And maybe there is an overlap at times. But for sure, yeah. I mean, I would see a greater benefit to some kind of virtual working world than than I ever would to a social virtual world.

Michael Stormbom
So of course Facebook, or Meta as the company is known nowadays, they are not the only ones who are working on a Metaverse concept or… and of course, the concept of virtual worlds has been around for a long time already. Think of games for example. So one company is also putting a lot of effort on the Metaverse is Microsoft. They’re working on their own Metaverse concept with one particular aspect being work and exactly that, having virtual and hybrid collaboration with some people physically present and others participating remotely. So Microsoft is putting particular emphasis on exactly what you talked about. Namely the metaverse in the work life and, and more geared towards enterprises. But Facebook’s vision. I mean Meta’s vision of the Metaverse is then more geared towards the social.

Ian Bowie
You know the the idea of attending a virtual gig, in my opinion is absolutely pointless experience. I mean…

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, but that’s straight from the promo video that they did for this whole Metaverse. Yeah, indeed. I mean, that’s the Metaverse vision.

Ian Bowie
The whole idea of going to a gig used to go to a gig and to experience the whole thing. Yes. Sitting in your bedroom alone.

Michael Stormbom
How about going to a nightclub without ever leaving your home?

Ian Bowie
How sad is that? Yeah. So basically, all he’s trying to do now is create a virtual Facebook.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, yeah. Basically. I mean, as I said, we are already glued to the screens and just taking it…

Ian Bowie
But that’s it?

Michael Stormbom
That’s it.

Ian Bowie
That’s as much as it is. I think that is so so sad.

Michael Stormbom
There’s nothing more to it, that’s my point, yeah.

Ian Bowie
Forget it. I mean, you know, I… Okay, I could imagine it for certain things like even, you know, I might be interested in virtual travel, could be okay. Especially for example, if you want to do a bit of research before you actually physically go there. Yeah. Yeah, I could see the relevance in that. I could absolutely see it in a working environment. Factory tours, for example, Site, site tours.

Michael Stormbom
Training.

Ian Bowie
Training, all kinds of things. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I see huge potential value in all of this.

Michael Stormbom
But yeah, but that’s really more about the virtual reality aspect of it rather than this Metaverse aspect, which is just some sort of blending of. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. And I think you can forget the Metaverse. I mean, virtual reality. Yeah, absolutely. I, I see, you know, huge potential for that, particularly within the training, educational sort of context.

Michael Stormbom
I mean, we’ve already now been through two years of remote working. In many cases have been working perfectly well. Yeah. Yeah. For those work, where it’s of course possible to… So just taking it one step further than the… the virtual sort of work.

Ian Bowie
I can see you know, absolutely a use for that. But I didn’t I didn’t realize that he was just thinking that you were going to give up actual real physical experiences to live in basically nothing.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, it’s almost almost like that. Oh, yeah. It’s taking Facebook to the next level of intrusiveness in a way. Yeah. And then imagine, imagine because of course on Facebook, you get random advertisements for stuff so imagine that there’s like a random person walking into your field of vision and it’s an avatar for some company selling you some stuff and… You’re asleep in your bed and then like a person comes up to knock on your shoulder. Hey, have you tried this new product?

Ian Bowie
The advantage of that for the advertising companies you couldn’t punch them in the face? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that’s just rubbish that. Oh, what’s the point? A virtual pub? What are you gonna do drink virtual beer and talk to your virtual mate?

Michael Stormbom
And get virtually drunk? Yes.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Yeah, no, I really missed this.

Michael Stormbom
Oh, this is why I’m not too…

Ian Bowie
No, I’m with you on that. I didn’t realize that it was, it was that sad. Do you think he’s genuine this guy? Or do you think he’s just trying to find new ways to keep his social media platform relevant?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I think it’s all about that.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, I’ve got a feeling, isn’t it? Yeah. Because I mean, you know, there. There are so many other platforms out there. I mean, I remember several years ago, and I think I mentioned to my daughter, oh, you know, you can mention this on Facebook. And she just looked at me said, that so yesterday, so you know, the young have moved away. I think Facebook is inhabited by people probably over the age of 40. I don’t know what their demographic is, but…

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, that’s true. No, I think TikTok is the biggest social network these days. Well, not the biggest but at least has to has the most interesting demographic from the point of view of the social media purveyors.

Ian Bowie
Well, they’re all under the age of 30 aren’t they. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
After you’re 30 you’re spent.

Ian Bowie
Well, these are things like that.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, we spend quite a bit of time on criticizing the Metaverse concept, but perhaps to make this episode a little bit more balanced a bit we could try to think of some more positives aspects thereof as well.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, actually, I suppose. It would have possibly relevance to people who are possibly mobility impaired.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. So there’s an accessibility aspect to it for sure.

Ian Bowie
I wonder if it could also be used, I know we’re going to do an episode on AI and mental health, but people who suffer from some types of social phobias if it could be used as a sort of a way of slowly easing them back into society.

Michael Stormbom
That would be quite an interesting idea, yeah, yeah.

Ian Bowie
So like as a therapeutic benefit.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, so way to deal with yourself. Yeah, yeah, that would be quite interesting if that were possible. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
And of course, and I mean, obviously, taking you to places that you possibly don’t have an opportunity to go to. I mean, all right. I know I just the idea of going to a virtual gig. But what if you didn’t have the possibility to be there personally. But you really just wanted to experience at least the music and some kind of feeling. Yeah, from the event?

Michael Stormbom
Absolutely. And I mean, during the pandemic, when you really couldn’t go anywhere, so there were many bands and artists, live streaming there. Yeah. So playing in front of an empty hall but people watching online so…

Ian Bowie
Yeah, so you just take that to another level?

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. Take it to the next level, basically. Yes, yeah.

Ian Bowie
Or, of course. I mean, for example, I’ve always liked the idea of Glastonbury, but…

Michael Stormbom
You just couldn’t be arsed to go there.

Ian Bowie
I actually don’t really want to go there, because it just sounds like misery on earth. You know, wading through, you know, meters of mud and living in a waterlogged tent for several days. And then the fact is, Glastonbury isn’t exactly just off a motorway. So you’re then stuck in these country lanes for hours and hours and hours, queueing with everybody else. And then even when you’re in you probably get the you know, at the very back. So you need binoculars to see who’s on stage. So a virtual Glastonbury or the opportunity to be able to attend Glastonbury virtually that Yeah, that could be interesting. I mean, I might even be willing to pay for that. Yeah, yeah. Not the same as a proper entrance fee, you understand? But…

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, so I think there’s a distinction between sort of experiencing the Metaverse on occasion as opposed to it being like your entire life. I think that’s a key distinction.

Ian Bowie
I think I started out from the perspective that the problem with these people like Mr. Facebook, is that I think they actually start to lose sense of their own realities. And they almost start to believe that they’re always demigods. And they can do whatever they want. Yeah. And you know, that there’s a danger that they say, well, you know, look at what I’ve created. Therefore, I must be right. Therefore, you should listen to me and do as I say, and that’s something that I very, very much resist. Because, of course, I suppose I’m like everybody else. I want to feel that when I make a decision, it’s my decision and I made it and it wasn’t made for me by me being manipulated or persuaded or brainwashed or whatever.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. And of course, social media is all about that.

Ian Bowie
You know, I mean, we, when you take a step back, and you start to think about it, perhaps more objectively, I mean, there’s normally good in everything. I mean, there’s probably good in Facebook, I mean, I haven’t found it. I haven’t found any use for it, but I’m sure that you know, there are many people out there who feel that they have benefited from the fact that Facebook exists. Yeah. And I know, I mean, stories that you know, families have been reunited and goodness knows what else. So you know, it has been a force for good as well.

Michael Stormbom
And I’m keeping in touch with people who I otherwise wouldn’t be keeping in touch with. But, but yeah, but too much. Facebook is not good for you.

Ian Bowie
Too much anything is not good. I mean, you know, even if you would like it to be.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. The problem is that Facebook wants to be up in your face all the time. And they’re pulling every psychological lever they possibly can.

Ian Bowie
This is where my barriers go. Yeah, you know, it’s I mean, I’m a language teacher, and I keep hearing the term methodology. And the minute I hear it, my barriers go up, you know, again, there is no one way to learn a language or acquire a language.

Michael Stormbom
I think we should definitely do an episode about different AI methodologies.

Ian Bowie
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Now, ideologies are dangerous. And I think Facebook has become another ideology, and it’s dangerous, but yes, I can see some good potential good in this Metaverse idea, providing it doesn’t become another ideology.

Michael Stormbom
And basically, that it doesn’t become just Facebook, just even more omnipresent.

Ian Bowie
Even even more manipulative.

Michael Stormbom
And intrusive. Yes, yes.

Ian Bowie
No, no. You know the examples I just gave, voluntarily, that you might want to go to a virtual concert because you couldn’t get there otherwise, you’re mobility impaired or you’ve got some psychological, mental health problem that sort of precludes you from joining other people. And health. You know, your maybe your own personal health is delicate. And actually, it’s not

Michael Stormbom
Or a pandemic forces you to stay home.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, I can’t see some good but only if it’s voluntary. And non manipulative.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. And in moderation.

Ian Bowie
Yes. Absolutely.

Ian Bowie
You’ve been listening to me, Ian Bowie, and my colleague, Michael. Stormbom, on AI unfiltered and for more episodes, please go to aiunfiltered.com Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai