#31: Controlling Your Life with AI

Ian Bowie
Hello and welcome to AI unfiltered with me Ian Bowie and our resident expert, Michael Stormbomm where we will be talking about everything to do with AI in our modern digital society and what the future holds for all of us.

Michael Stormbom
Are we at the point where just about every aspect of our lives could be automated?

Ian Bowie
Well, maybe from start to finish because I mean, they’re also coming up with the idea of completely autonomous mining because if you think everything starts with mining, it starts with what you dig out of the ground, doesn’t it? Yeah. So if you have completely autonomous mining, completely autonomous processing of what comes out of mines, which then goes into completely autonomous manufacturing, or design and then manufacturing, distribution.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, so no human being involved at any stage in the process.

Ian Bowie
Only as a consumer now. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
And even there you’ll have an AI that purchase your stuff for you automatically.

Ian Bowie
Absolutely. My AI butler will…

Michael Stormbom
Yes. handle that as well. AI personal shopper.

Ian Bowie
I suppose that’s possible. Yeah, as long as as long as it knows what you like and don’t like.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, if you can get it accurate enough. Then sure. Why not? I think they’re about five minutes away from doing that already. Yeah. They surely don’t mind if you buy stuff you don’t need.

Ian Bowie
Well. Now there’s a great way of stopping mindless consumerism is if actually, before you can buy something, you have to pass the algorithm.

Michael Stormbom
Aah, so you’ll have the AI deciding whether you’re…

Ian Bowie
Absolutely yeah. no, You do not need a new pair of socks.

Michael Stormbom
So an AI custodian. Yeah. Interesting. AI. Your personal AI dictator.

Ian Bowie
You can’t go and buy more food until you’ve eaten what’s in the fridge. And then it analyzes what’s in the fridge and then it comes up with recipe suggestions to use everything that’s there. And then when it’s satisfied that there is no longer a combination of enough ingredients to produce a meal, it then allows you to go shopping

Michael Stormbom
That’d be a way to decrease the food waste.

Ian Bowie
Wouldn’t it? Yeah, really? Yeah. And then the AI decides whether this journey is necessary or not.

Michael Stormbom
And whether you can take the car or whether you have to walk.

Ian Bowie
That’s right. It’s only a mile down the road. You can walk.

Michael Stormbom
And remember to take your shopping bag. You’re not going to buy a new plastic.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Could you imagine that sort of a completely AI controlled life? Or even the fridge won’t even open? Because it decides well, no, hang on a minute. You ate an hour and a half ago. Yeah. And there were so many calories in what you ate.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, this is a kind of a companion piece to the episode we did about automating your life. But yeah, it is also the… now you’re automating the decision making.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. I mean, some people would be quite happy to have decisions taken for them. Other people wouldn’t like it, and some people need it. Because they have no self control. Yeah. No, you’re not having another beer, a glass of wine, whiskey, whatever. But no, I think I think you know, there is definitely a case for having AI control certain aspects of people’s lives, and also this food inequality thing. Basically, the way I would see it working, is that you would have you know, we’ve talked about universal basic income before. Yeah. But what about just sort of universal basic food income, that somehow the government would ensure that everybody is able to access a healthy diet and afford it? So maybe

Michael Stormbom
It should be a basic, fundamental human right.

Ian Bowie
Of course. I don’t see why not. I mean, if you somehow control it that you know, they can buy vegetables, they can buy fruit. They can buy meat, dairy..

Michael Stormbom
You could havethe AI enforcing a more equitable food distribution across society. Yeah. Well, another matter of course, is that I mean, if you have an AI enforcing a specific diet for you, like you’re only allowed to buy healthy stuff, governments already try to encourage or discourage specific dietary choices through, like sugar taxes, for example. While a completely different topic, but on the question of individual liberties, we’ve had that debate. Now during the pandemic in the context of a major crisis, the limits of individual liberties.

Ian Bowie
Wasn’t it, wasn’t it Delhi during the COVID pandemic, that suddenly the skies cleared out, and they could see the Himalayas you know, they hadn’t been able to see that for decades because of course, there were no flights, a lot of manufacturing had stopped. And then suddenly, everything just cleared and who has to tell you something, doesn’t it?

Michael Stormbom
Well, for sure. Well, I mean, one thing that it does tell you that apparently we can spring into action.

Ian Bowie
When there’s no choice

Michael Stormbom
When the government says soh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If climate change was treated with the same level of urgency, then…

Ian Bowie
It’s never gonna be treated. Seems not no. It’s not. No, the world will dry up and burn before why even then it’s too late. So personally, I’d sad to say I don’t see any hope. Actually.

Michael Stormbom
It seems pretty grim. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
It’s a pretty grim future for all of us. And then, you know, I mean, Nora, I mean, I’m starting to get a little bit older now. But I think about my grandchildren, you know, still not even 10 years old. I’m on another no buy year. I had one a couple of years ago when I decide I’m not buying thing for a year. Unless it’s absolutely unavoidably necessary. Yeah. So this is things like you know, clothing or stuff basically going to of course I have to buy food. And I’ve decided to have another year like that. So I mean, I seem to wear socks out quite rapidly. Although in the summer I don’t wear socks gloves wear sandals. But yeah, I’m gonna see so I’m not very good for the for the global economy. Because I’m buying naught.

Michael Stormbom
You’re prolonging the recession.

Ian Bowie
Prolong the misery of all you horrible manufacturers. But no, I’m well apart from maybe a PodMic.

Michael Stormbom
Yes. 100 euros at… yeah no.

Ian Bowie
Necessary. Maybe.

Michael Stormbom
This is necessary for us to be able to tell you the truth. Yeah, we’ve spoken about this one before too. But what about an AI making healthcare decisions? For example, in deciding on whether to treat to patient. No I mean we’ve spoken about cancer, so my father’s cancer for example, before, so then they said that we’re not going to treat this anymore? Because so I mean, it already happens that the doctors make decisions.

Ian Bowie
Oh they do, oh yeah, I know that yes.

Michael Stormbom
So in that sense, it’s not it’s not controversial. That’s what doctors do. They decide.

Ian Bowie
Even that’s quite controversial because of course line. A, especially when it comes to cancers, it can a lot can depend on just where you happen to live. Yeah. For example, in Finland. The quality of cancer care that you get in Finland varies quite considerably around the country. A lot depends on for example, even what personal doctors believe themselves, budgets of course, yeah, and budgetary restraints. Or local authority that doesn’t have the money will will will buy or feed you much cheaper and less effective cancer medication. Or you might just happen to get a doctor who doesn’t believe in a certain kind of medication, irrespective of what the tests and results show. So there’s a case for AI in medicine in you know, in medicine.

Michael Stormbom
Have an objective… welll there’s no such thing as objective in that sense, but objective criteria for when… Yeah, Oh, for sure. Yes.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, I think that’s pretty, uh, you’re gonna get a fairer decision from a machine. Than you might from a human being.

Michael Stormbom
Well, not necessarily given the great risk of bias in AI as we have talked about in previous episodes, so of course, one would have to be mindful of that.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. So no, I think there’s there’s definitely a very, very strong argument for more AI in medicine than less.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, yeah, we’ve spoken about this in the Explainable AI, which is our most popular episode, by the way. All right. So that seems to be a topic that people are interested in. No but exactly that ,objective criteria for how things are decided. I think that’s yeah,

Ian Bowie
Yeah, no, absolutely becomes fair. I don’t think medical treatment is fair at the moment because, you know, those who have money can buy more of it. That’s absolutely true. And I don’t think that’s right in, in Western developed societies, particularly,

Michael Stormbom
Yeah no, because if you have enough money in your bank account…

Ian Bowie
I know ya know, it’s wrong. You know, I just don’t think that should be allowed at all.

Michael Stormbom
No, indeed.

Ian Bowie
And of course, again, if you have machines, they will look at the case and the facts and not the bank account.

Michael Stormbom
Assuming the AI has been designed not to take the bank account into account.

Ian Bowie
Well, yeah, I mean, have to be that’s quite an easy thing to check, isn’t it? So?

Michael Stormbom
Certainly, but that’s why AI needs to be explainable, because there can be all sorts of interesting decisions made. And you don’t quite know why.

Michael Stormbom
No, but hey, while we’re at it, why don’t we automate the politicians too and just let the machines run the show? I mean, technology’s already used to manipulate our behavior on like social media, for example. So why not just go all the way in automate policy decision making to create an AI dictator should be the…

Ian Bowie
Benevolent dictator? Yeah, yeah. Benevolent dictator. Yes. Because you have to believe that machines don’t get greedy. And what more

Michael Stormbom
Unless they get sentient.

Ian Bowie
Well, of course, yeah, that’s right. Yeah. But don’t you think, it’s going back to the medical question as well, the machines will always be objective. And they’re not greedy and they don’t have ulterior motives. And they’re not self serving.

Michael Stormbom
I think the trick to that is that because of course, somehow has created the machines and if someone snuck in a little backdoor there.

Ian Bowie
It requires an altruistic programmer. Somebody who also has no hidden agenda to create these systems.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, yeah. And a great deal of transparency in the…

Ian Bowie
Absolutely, yeah, but an AI utopia. Now, wouldn’t that be something? Yeah, because you know, we’ve talked so much about dystopian futures. But wouldn’t it be nice actually to be able to imagine an AI driven and controlled utopia, where everybody has a guaranteed basic level of existence.

Michael Stormbom
That would be very nice indeed.

Ian Bowie
Wouldn’t it? Yeah, absolutely. Because I don’t believe it’s ever going to be a human controlled environment that will create that kind of utopia. I think it can only be a machine.

Michael Stormbom
Well, yeah, I mean, there has to be that objectivity and fairness built into the

Ian Bowie
Yes. Yes. It can only be a machine that cannot be corrupted, cannot be hacked. Obviously.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, well, that has to be very carefully built into the process. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Of course, it can be that in such a utopian society, human beings have zero access to computers, bing, bing, no internet. Gone. Not necessary. You know, if you gave the world to a machine, it would immediately see there is no logic in having destructive devices in the world. There is only logic in having things that construct or enhance life not destroy.

Michael Stormbom
That said, it still requires to buy-in from everyone. Otherwise, you’ll have an uprising.

Ian Bowie
You need a small team of dedicated developers who can sneak this in through the back door when nobody’s looking. Yes. And takeover.

Michael Stormbom
Let’s start working on that one.

Ian Bowie
Yeah, we need a benevolent Terminator.

Michael Stormbom
I feel the name Terminator implies a certain… And that’s usually where the dystopia kicks in at the machine decides that well the human beings are just worthless.

Ian Bowie
Not all, the nice ones can live.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, but tell that to the machines, they’re the ones making the decisions.

Ian Bowie
Oh, yeah. Okay, it’s a difficult one. I know. Yeah. I still believe it’s possible.

Michael Stormbom
Maybe it will let the human beings that serve the machine.

Ian Bowie
A machine-lead utopia? Yeah. Yeah. I believe it’s possible. I don’t know how but I do believe it’s possible. Human beings are just not logical. And they’re too unstable and the too unpredictable and not rational No, and not rational. No. So you know, you’ve got to get rid of all of that.

Michael Stormbom
Or miss any of the human beings to create the thing that gets rid of all that. This is the..

Ian Bowie
Well you do but I mean, there are there are enough. You know, like I say, sort of that kind of human being around. You just need to put them the clever ones. together to create it, and then let it run. And then all these war mongering scoundrels will be wiped out. I’ve got a list.

Michael Stormbom
Check the website now if you’re on the list.

Ian Bowie
I’d be quite happy to sit there and feed it in.

Michael Stormbom
Quite the long list I’m sure.

Ian Bowie
It does. It does run to some Yeah. Quite a few zeroes. Yeah, absolutely. Be quite an interesting idea, though.

Michael Stormbom
No, but I mean, certainly there’s a case for shall we call it more data driven decision making and taking the human out of the process in that sense.

Ian Bowie
Have you not noticed though, that the actually everything that involves the future and machines is always dystopian. Nobody has ever made a film that shows a utopian machine led reality. Machines are all seen as evil. Have you ever noticed that?

Michael Stormbom
I have noticed that. Yes. Well, I mean, I think it somehow challenges to allow the very, very notion of human existence and what it means to be human I think.

Ian Bowie
But we fear our own creations. Yeah, because that’s what it is. I mean, you said it yourself. You know, these machines have to be created by humans, but we fear what we are capable of creating.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah. Well, I will challenge that… so I mean, one of my favorite authors is Isaac Asimov, the science fiction writer. So I mean, he wrote a lot about societies which are very roboticised. Yeah. So I mean, and he very much took issue with this idea. Well, why is it always that the machine rises up and destroys humanity or whatever. So he’d be so he wrote very deliberately around that idea that of course, they will be programmed such that they’re not going to overthrow the human beings in that sense. So the three robotic laws there.

Ian Bowie
You see I haven’t read any Isaac Asimov. Science fiction was never really my thing, but maybe I should start reading it.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, I quite like it very dialogue-driven. Yeah, like, yeah, all right.

Ian Bowie
Okay. I might have to look into that because I know for some reason I know Finnish people love science fiction. I never really understood why. And of course, you always find people who like science fiction, but not to such a huge degree as you find in Finland.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah I haven’t thought about that.

Ian Bowie
No, you wouldn’t because you’re a Finn. You’re too close to it.

Michael Stormbom
I’m too close to the…

Ian Bowie
I still observe from the outside. And that’s something that I’ve noticed. How many thought about maybe it’s just a desire to escape from reality.

Michael Stormbom
The bleak existence that… I mean the very first sci fi novel was, of course, Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley. Yes. So same thing there, human creation.

Ian Bowie
That’s true. Goes a little bit haywire. Yeah. I never really thought of Frankenstein as being science fiction, actually.

Michael Stormbom
I believe it’s considered the first science fiction story.

Ian Bowie
Sort of a horror horror story.

Michael Stormbom
Well, speaking about the dystopian angle to all this.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Yeah, no, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that. Science fiction, I would say that

Michael Stormbom
It’s well, I mean, of course, they’re using you know, science.

Ian Bowie
Well, yeah. No, that’s to me. It’s still more of a horror story.

Michael Stormbom
Well, I mean, you can be science fiction and horror, there are any number of those as well. Yeah, Alien. For example. Yeah.

Ian Bowie
I suppose. Yes. I suppose there was an element of science in Frankenstein.

Michael Stormbom
Well there’s a doctor doing medical sciency stuff.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. Yeah, true. I hadn’t really thought about that. Ya know, because because when I think of science fiction, I sort of tend to think more that there are machines in there and computers. And spaceships. Absolutely. Space.

Michael Stormbom
Yeah, no, but also the notion that AIs can be dangerous. So that’s why there aren’t any AIs around, seems to be like a recurring element in a lot of science fiction.

Ian Bowie
Yeah. I never really thought about it really. I just thought anything that involves weird technologies and space and strange creatures.

Michael Stormbom
well, by that standard, Mission Impossible is a science fiction.

Ian Bowie
But certainly fiction. Yeah.

Michael Stormbom
No one is disputing it is fiction.

Ian Bowie
James Bond. I mean, I don’t there’s an element of science fiction in that isn’t there really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Doctor Who and the out of control AI, there’s an episode for them to think about. Yes. And on that happy note, I think we’ll we’ll end.

Ian Bowie
You’ve been listening to me, Ian Bowie and my colleague Michael Stormbom. On AI Unfiltered and for more episodes, please go to aiunfiltered.com. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai